Posts by Mr Lebowski

46

Can "Born-Into-Its" Ever Be Happy?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

just wondering....take a 40 year old male ('cos he's an ex-elder!

) who's been born a dub.

he becomes disenchanted with dubdom and eventually decides to leave.

Mr Lebowski

First off, E, yes, you can. I'm in my late 30's.

Three things that helped me:

1) Let go of resentments and look towards the future. The harder I held onto my anger at missing out on my adolescence, not going to college, and all the rest, the more it got in my way. It's like the old coconut monkey value trap - as long as our clenched fist is inside the cocnut, holding on to the past, we can't get our hand out of the tiny hole in the coconut - so there we stay, trapped by our own values. Remember, you're still here - what do you want to do now?

The best ways I found to let go (easy to say, harder to do) were to do cognitive work (therapy or seminar work) and to stay busy trying new things and meeting new people. The best way I learned that most people "in the world' are really good-hearted people was to meet a lot of them.

2) Remember that happiness is not an end-result - it's a byproduct, a side-effect, that comes about when you are fulfilling yourself. Cast about openmindedly looking for the thing that is just the thing for you to spend your time and energy doing. Make a difference for others, and you'll make the biggest difference for yourself.

Peace and contentment, my brother,

El Duderino

11

Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening!

by SpannerintheWorks in

jw
friends

how are you today?

feeling good about life, or do you want to change something?

how is your life?

Mr Lebowski

Easy there big fella - no offense intended. If my attempt at humor came across as ill-willed, I sincerely apologize.

I simply meant that information does not create action - intention does. We both know that action can be taken without information. Of course, you're a lot more likely to take "right action" with proper knowledge. Beyond a certain point, though, sometimes we just have to move.

My point is simply that I know Witnesses that have all the info available here, and their fears have still prevented them from taking the next step. We probably both know witnesses who admit in private conversation that they know in their gut that the WTS is dysfunctional, but haven't done anything because of the kids or the parents or the wife.

I work with engineers all the time who want to collect data and avoid decisions, because decisions involve risk and data-collection "feels" safer to them. I'm sure that you would agree that taking the action is the important thing, and something we would both encourage.

Look before you leap. Then leap. "Brother Gregory" (from a greeting card I have on my bookcase)

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

Petty... conformist... controlling... domineering... pressuring - absolutely.

But acting in a controlling fashion is different from "mind control".

Seen the movie "Far From Heaven"? The subtle pressures you describe have been part of American society for generations and human society for thousands of years, and JW's have no lock on them. That's how many societal groups work. Peer pressure, fear of rejection, is a powerful behavior modifier - but it only works if we let it. Even works with hairier primates than ourselves...

UC, I think there's a little bit of a fallacy in your logic about the motivator being money. Most of the ones initiating the pressure are individuals who receive no financial advantage from their involvement. Even COs don't get as nice a life as they could have being in one place. Any organization makes sure that the ones at the top are cared for...but the ones that do the most damage in the KH from a peer-pressure point of view are the "true beleivers", not the fat cats in Brooklyn. I do concur that money and power are the motivators at the top.

As far as how the various types of intense pressure and threats such as df'ing, shunning, etc., would feel, I don't need to ask anyone, Undercover - I know. :/ I'm not writing in a vacuum here, and I suspect none of us are.

As Gary B pointed out, the WTS uses a lot of the techniques which can be attributed to "mind control" by some writers. I simply believe that they don't use them to a degree, or level of immersion, where they qualify as "mind control". They certainly do qualify as intense, focused efforts to keep the faithful in line, but I would equate it more with the Hindu threat of re-incarnation as a rock in the next life if you're bad in this one. The fact remains that any JW can leave whenever they want to, and many of us are living proof. You just have to want to leave badly enough to pay the prices, and let me echo that I'm glad I'm out as well - it was the best action I ever took.

Usually, the things that are really obvious to us don't need to be discussed on boards... so, M, you posted it for a reason. Maybe it was to give others something to think about.

As far as the kids go, I think the question of how to ethically impart any belief system to kids is fascinating, and probably not at all obvious. I'll think about that one next week.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion, all. Think of me hiking spritedly, golfing abysmally, and lounging unmercifully all next week.

El Duderino

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

Well, mine, and anyone who reads the board, I guess ;)

Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. (Heinlein again?)

See y'all in a week - I'm off to vacation.

Duder

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

I think it's interesting that minimus started the thread with the statement, "Jehovah's Witnesses are under mind control", but Randy's link to the thread from freeminds.org is headlined "Are Jehovah's Witnesses under mind control?".

Since I didn't take responsibility to make sure I was addressing the actual topic of the thread, I was participating in an incorrect fashion. I though that a question had been asked. It hadn't - I was wrong. Minimus made a statement - minimus did not ask a question. Lots of people agreed with it, some didn't. The statement used a term which minimus never defined (my research shows a number of different definitions for the term "mind control", and the first one I Googled is included below), and so the discussion, while spirited, has consisted mainly of a lot of emotional reactions to the words "Jehovah's Witnesses" and "mind control" being in the same sentence.

Since I don't agree with the statement, then minimus referring to it by saying "some truths are undeniable" is interesting. It's a discussion board. We're discussing it - that's what the board is for. And using statements like "some truths are undeniable", while undoubtedy personally true for you, minimus, don't seem to support the purpose of a discussion board - unless minimus wasn't looking for discussion of a question, but was instead looking for people to agree with a statement. (Bah - now I'm starting to sound like a wanker.)

It seems safe to say that, regardless of the definition of "mind control", most of the posters here want it to apply to JW's.

(from http://www.factnet.org/coercion.html?FACTNet)

Mind control is the shaping of a person's attitudes, beliefs, and personality without the person's knowledge or consent. Mind control employs deceptive and surreptitious manipulation, usually in a group setting, for the financial or political profit of the manipulator. Mind control works by gradually exerting increasing control over individuals through a variety techniques, such as excessive repetition of routine activities, intense humiliation, or sleep deprivation.

I would state that Witnesses consciously agree to change their attitudes and beliefs, and that the manipulation is overt, without the use of the techniques listed here. To me, that truth is undeniable. However, I'm still interested in discussing it, as long as we can agree on what "mind control" means for the purposes of this discussion. Rigid, oppressive techiques were used by Stalin in ruling the USSR, but that didn't qualify as mind control either. The lack of freedom of expression, or of freedom of speech, or of freedom of dissent, does not constitute mind control. Doesn't make it nice, right, or good - but it's not mind control.

I think the raising of kids as JW's (as GaryB referred to earlier) is an interesting topic, and one that probably merits another thread.

Professor Brain had spent his life in search of the truth - so he could place it under house arrest. Robert Anson Heinlein

My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness. The Dalai Lama.

The Dude, out.

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

I always love seeing the phrase "...the truth is..." on any discussion board, but on a JW discussion board? Priceless! :)

(I'm assuming you started the thread to hear others' points of view, and not just to start the blood-in-the-water piranha-feast of the first few pages...;)

I'm curious, m... do you see active JW's as legally competent? I ask, not as a smart-aleck, but because the definition of adulthood I mentioned earlier could come into play. I think that the Society actively attempts to prevent JW's from thinking or behaving as competent adults. There are some interesting definitions of adults and juveniles in this document. http://www.childwelfare.net/SJDC/Juvenileculpability.pdf

I remember a Heinlein story where he posits that the term "juvenile delinquent" is a contradiction - a "juvenile" is by definition not capable of being responsible, and "delinquency" is a lack of responsibility. I think it was Starship Troopers (the book doesn't suck, btw).

Well, gotta take a shower 'fore the guests arrive...boy, dinner smells good.

32

Our own personal growth and leaving

by Mr Lebowski in

jw
friends

first, the tee-up: many on this board are former jws.

former jws fall into two categories:.

1) those who consciously chose out, perhaps as an intellectual position, perhaps as an emotional reaction to some event, maybe while in the throes of some existential crisis.. 2) those who blew it, and got busted for (cue music) breakin the law, breakin' the law, breakin' the law.

Mr Lebowski

Yeah, I liked building weekend Halls - the excitement, getting to do lots of different kinds of work, getting to meet girls from other towns :)

I liked helping older ones (I guess that is what churches are for, right?) and I liked being a Watchtower-study answer geek (I still occsionally try too hard to look smart...it was the only way to be special that was allowed in our household, but I've weaned myself from it largely). I even loved doing audio during meetings - it was a sanctioned way to distract myself, and it's ironic that I am in the audio-electronics field now.

But I hated door-to-door. And yes, guilt was what kept me in it for years. I honestly beleived that I would kill my mom and grandma. (Mom's survived my leaving for 16 -17 years now, and our relationship is better than ever - and I'm not what killed dear old Grandma).

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

Every Christian group short of Unitarians believe that they only have the truth (as do many of my Sierra Club friends, but that's another story).

The Society is very rigid, autocratic, hierarchical, dogmatic, and nearly fascist in their approach.

They are thoroughly non-democratic - they are manipulative, emotionally coercive, and ruthlessly conditional in their acceptance of humans.

They seem to place little value on human life or on the priceless wonder that every human should inspire.

But I'm not ready to call that "Mind Control"... there are a lot of names I will call it, but many of them are not suitable for a family newspaper.

Gotta cook dinner - love and doughnuts to all,

The Dude

32

Our own personal growth and leaving

by Mr Lebowski in

jw
friends

first, the tee-up: many on this board are former jws.

former jws fall into two categories:.

1) those who consciously chose out, perhaps as an intellectual position, perhaps as an emotional reaction to some event, maybe while in the throes of some existential crisis.. 2) those who blew it, and got busted for (cue music) breakin the law, breakin' the law, breakin' the law.

Mr Lebowski

First, the tee-up: Many on this board are former JWs. Former JWs fall into two categories:

1) Those who consciously chose out, perhaps as an intellectual position, perhaps as an emotional reaction to some event, maybe while in the throes of some existential crisis.

2) Those who blew it, and got busted for (cue music) breakin the law, breakin' the law, breakin' the law. Many of those in group number 2 have since chosen to join group number 1. Others are still wishing they never got caught. (By the way, here's an idea for you reluctant #2s: you decided to do something that got you kicked out, fairly or unfairly...it was still your choice. So...what was that about - why'd you do it?)

So, those of you in group number one...what need were you filling while you were in the Witness Protection Program? Inclusion, acceptance, praise for good performance? And what finally got you off of the crack pipe? What changed for you? Not the story, but the back-story - what went on for you inside?

As in, "I went out and got a job and got really good at it, and my professional accomplishment gave me enough self-esteem to walk away from the Witnesses as my only source for self-worth". Or "I had sex". Or whatever.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Mohandas Gandhi

Peace and compassion,

The Dude

207

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".

it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.

how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?

Mr Lebowski

Membership in any group is contingent on playing the game by their rules.

If I went on TV as a member of the Sierra Club and started advocating drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge, I'm pretty sure that the Sierra Club would boot me to the curb pretty publicly. True, the Witnesses get a little obsessive-compulsive about it.

I think a fascinating question is "What need within ourselves was served by being a witness? Why did it eventually stop being enough to keep us in it?"...(Hey! A new topic!)